Punih osam mjeseci čekali smo odobrenje za intervju sa sirijskim predsjednikom Basharom Al-Assadom, iz novinarskog kuta gledano, nedvojbeno najtraženijim svjetskim čelnikom.
No ni nakon odobrenja nije sve išlo glatko. Morali smo obaviti niz telefonskih razgovora i poslati mnoštvo e-mailova prije odlaska u Siriju. Procedura oko autorizacije intervjua izuzetno je komplicirana. Kako su nam objasnili, većina bi novinara iz odgovora predsjednika Bashara Al-Assada izvukla samo ono što im je odgovaralo i tako bi iskrivili odgovore i teze. U Damasku smo, prije intervjua, boravili tri dana te dogovarali posljednje detalje. Na sam dan intervjua još nismo znali gdje ćemo razgovarati s predsjednikom s obzirom na to da smo se naslušali raznih priča i nagađanja o tome gdje se Assad zaista nalazi. Stigavši u dvorište njegova ureda u Damasku, očekivali smo da je to tek početna stanica gdje će nas dočekati garda koja će nas odvesti tko zna kamo kako bismo se susreli s Assadom. Izlazeći iz automobila, doživjeli smo šok – predsjednik Assad je stajao na vratima i čekao nas.
“Dobar dan, Hassane, dobro došli u Damask. Nadam se da se niste previše umorili”, obratio nam se predsjednik pružajući ruku. Uzvratili smo mu pozdrav i zahvalili osobno i uime redakcije Večernjeg lista što nam je pristao dati intervju. Nakon razmjene kurtoaznih riječi, počeli smo razgovor, koji je trajao pola sata. Tijekom cijelog intervjua predsjednik Bashar Al-Assad djelovao je smireno, staloženo i samouvjereno. Iako su vani odjekivale snažne detonacije, na njih je bio potpuno imun. Nijednom gestom nije pokazao da je zabrinut. Na sva pitanja odgovarao je smireno, temeljito i argumentirano iako ih nije tražio unaprijed. Kako nas je dočekao, tako nas je i ispratio – srdačno, ljubazno, i sa željama za zdravlje i dug život.
>>Osveta za teroristički napad u Rusiji: Bombarderi nadlijeću Damask i gađaju položaje terorista
Šesta godina rata
Već je šesta godina od početka sirijskog rata. Nakon nedavnih trijumfa sirijske vojske u Alepu i Palmiri te početka procesa pomirenja, postoji li tračak nade da će se okončati rat u Siriji?
Naravno, jer bez nade ni zemlja, ni ljudi, ni država ne bi mogli izdržati šest godina okrutnog rata, koji podržava desetak regionalnih i zapadnih zemalja. A među njima su i neke od najbogatijih i najsnažnijih zemalja svijeta. Ali, sada je pitanje kako tu nadu pretvoriti u stvarnost? To je do sada bilo moguće zahvaljujući dvama pristupima. Prvi je borba protiv terorizma, a drugi postizanje pomirenja sa svima koji žele položiti oružje, vratiti se svojim normalnim životima i zagrljaju svoje zemlje. Bilo je napretka na oba područja, i u suzbijanju terorizma i u postizanju pomirenja. Zato kažem da sada postoji više nade nego proteklih godina.
U pregovorima koji su ranije vođeni u Astani i sada u Ženevi većina oporbenih pregovarača podržava razmišljanja vahabita, salafista i džihadista. Zašto pregovarate s tim ljudima? I postoji li u stvarnosti neka umjerena oporba?
To je vrlo važno pitanje jer su zapadni dužnosnici, a najnaglašenije bivši američki predsjednik Obama, rekli da je umjerena oporba iluzija ili fantazija. To su, dakle, rekli oni koji su poslije podržavali tu oporbu i dali joj lažni umjereni privid. Umjerena oporba ne postoji, postoji samo džihadistička oporba, naravno u iskrivljenom smislu džihada. Ona ne prihvaća ni dijalog ni rješenje, osim putem terorizma. Zbog toga mi praktično i ne možemo postići nikakav stvarni rezultat s njima. Dokaz za to je to da su oni, tijekom pregovora u Astani, započeli napad na Damask, Hamu i druge dijelove Sirije, obnavljajući terorizam i ubijajući nevine ljude. Ti teroristi ne mogu biti oporba i ne mogu pomoći u postizanju rješenja. Osim toga, te terorističke grupe povezane su s programima djelovanja stranih država. Oni ne pripadaju nekoj struji ili pokretu u sirijskom narodu koji traže političku reformu ili određeno rješenje, nisu to činili ni prije, a ne čine ni tijekom rata. Neki dijelovi tih grupa mogu izgledati politički, u smislu da ne nose oružje, ali podržavaju terorizam, dok su neki povezani sa saudijskim, turskim i zapadnjačkim programima djelovanja.
Uski politički interesi
Zašto onda pregovarate s njima?
Zato što u početku mnogi nisu vjerovali da te grupe ne žele položiti oružje i okrenuti se političkom djelovanju. Mi smo počeli pregovore želeći dokazati svima koji su sumnjali da se te grupe ne mogu uključiti u politiku i da će do kraja ostati terorističke.
Svijet je objavio rat terorizmu. Vjerujete li u tu objavu i u ono što svijet danas čini?
Svijet koji je objavio rat terorizmu praktično se sastoji od zapadnih zemalja koje i same podržavaju terorizam. Većina je zemalja u svijetu protiv terorizma. One to ne objavljuju, ali su u praksi surađivale s nama na razne načine tijekom rata i prije rata. Jer terorizam nije započeo s ratom u Siriji, on je uvijek postojao u svijetu i proširio se kao rezultat različitih sukoba na Bliskom istoku. Međutim, zapadne zemlje koje su objavile rat terorizmu još uvijek ga podržavaju. One ga ne suzbijaju, a terorizam koriste samo kao izraz za domaću javnost. Činjenica je da oni koriste terorizam kao platformu za različite političke programe djelovanja, čak i onda kada im se taj terorizam obije o glavu i izazove žrtve u njihovim zemljama. Ali oni to ne priznaju. Protiv terorizma u Siriji u osnovi se bori samo sirijska arapska vojska. Ovo nije floskula, činjenice na terenu to dokazuju. Sirijska arapska vojska bila je u stanju postići uspjehe u borbi protiv terorizma zahvaljujući, u prvom redu, volji sirijskih boraca i podršci naroda. Naravno, postojala je i vrlo snažna podrška naših saveznika Irana, Rusije i Hezbollaha iz Libanona.
Predstavlja li sirijska vojska sve sekte, etnicitete i manjine u Siriji?
Pa to je očito! Vojska koja bi predstavljala samo dio sirijskog naroda ne bi mogla pobijediti u ratu koji se događa u cijeloj Siriji. Bez obzira na to kako se to predstavlja na Zapadu. Na samom početku rata i teroristi i neprijateljski raspoloženi zapadni mediji, kao i oni u našoj regiji, željeli su predstaviti ovaj rat kao sektaški. Ta je slika bila jako raširena na Zapadu. Da je ona bila istinita, Sirija bi bila podijeljena već prvih mjeseci rata. Sirijci ne bi izdržali šest godina kao jedinstven narod. Istina je da teroristi kontroliraju neka područja, ali dijelovi koje kontrolira sirijska država uključuju sve spektre sirijskog naroda. Kad ta sirijska vojska i iza nje sirijska vlada ne bi predstavljale cjelokupan sirijski narod, ne bi bilo moguće vidjeti tu jedinstvenu sliku sirijskog naroda.
Da je postojala sigurnosna suradnja između sirijske vlade i europskih država, bismo li mogli izbjeći teroristička djelovanja koja su zahvatila Francusku, Belgiju...? Postavljam ovo pitanje jer je nakon terorističkih napada u Parizu bivši čelnik francuskih obavještajnih službi rekao da ste im dostavili imena i dokumentaciju o teroristima, ali da su ih oni odbili prihvatiti. Jesu li ih zbilja odbili prihvatiti? I, bismo li mi, da je postojala suradnja, bili u stanju izbjeći te terorističke činove?
Ne, on je vjerojatno govorio o suradnji prije rata jer nakon početka rata i francuske pozicije podržavanja terorista Sirija je obustavila sigurnosnu suradnju s tom zemljom. Ne možete imati sigurnosnu suradnju i političko neprijateljstvo u isto vrijeme. Trebao bi postojati politički sporazum s jedne strane, i sporazum na drugim područjima, uključujući sigurnost. Što se tiče pitanja bi li bilo moguće spriječiti te napade u Europi kroz jednu takvu sigurnosnu suradnju, u normalnim okolnostima odgovor bi bio da. Ali u današnjim okolnostima odgovor je ne jer Europa, ili brojne europske zemlje koje podržavaju teroriste, u velikoj mjeri šalju u Siriju desetke tisuća terorista ili ih podržavaju direktno i indirektno, logistički, oružjem, novcem, političkim pokrićem i svim drugim sredstvima. Kad dostignete taj stupanj podržavanja terorista – a mi ovdje govorimo o desecima tisuća, a možda i o stotinama tisuća u Siriji i susjednim područjima – u tom slučaju sigurnosna suradnja poprima ograničenu učinkovitost. Sigurnosna se suradnja fokusira na desetke ili stotine pojedinaca, ali ne može biti učinkovita kada postoje deseci i stotine tisuća terorista. Ako se Europa želi zaštititi u ovoj fazi, prvi korak bio bi prestanak podrške teroristima u Siriji. Uz pretpostavku da bismo htjeli surađivati s njima, u ovim okolnostima se ne mogu postići nikakvi rezultati. Mi to, naravno, nećemo učiniti sve dok oni podržavaju terorizam. Oni trebaju odmah prestati podržavati teroriste.
Godine 2009. posjetili ste Zagreb i sreli se s hrvatskim dužnosnicima. U to vrijeme sam pročitao vašu izjavu u kojoj ste rekli da je Hrvatska prijateljska zemlja, da je hrvatski narod bratski narod. Smatrate li još uvijek hrvatski narod prijateljem Sirije, posebno nakon isporuke oružja iz Hrvatske u Washington, a onda u Saudijsku Arabiju i Jordan, koje je na kraju palo u ruke terorista?
Svakako. Hrvatski narod je prijateljski narod i naši odnosi traju desetljećima. Govorimo o odnosu koji je trajao generacijama i još uvijek traje. Ne smatramo hrvatski narod odgovornim za pogreške koje su učinile njihove vlade. Što je još važnije, ako pokušamo pratiti javno mnijenje u Hrvatskoj u odnosu na ono što se događa u Siriji, ustanovit ćemo da je – u usporedbi s drugim zemljama – to javno mnijenje bilo, općenito tijekom rata, bliže razumijevanju onoga što se događa u Siriji nego kod mnogih drugih europskih naroda. Da taj odnos i to prijateljstvo nisu bili iskreni, hrvatskom narodu bilo bi teško razumjeti što se događa u Siriji. Zbog toga bih želio naglasiti da je ono što se dogodilo u vezi s isporukom oružja koje je došlo do terorista bilo jedno od “postignuća” prethodne hrvatske Vlade, možda zbog financijskih ili političkih interesa, možda je to bilo popuštanje pod pritiskom drugih velikih zapadnih sila. Ali, bilo kako bilo, oni su prodali interese i principe hrvatskog naroda u zamjenu za petrodolare ili za uske političke interese tih dužnosnika.
Zapad želi satelitske države
Je li moguće obnoviti političke i diplomatske, a možda i ekonomske odnose, jer Hrvatska ima brojne interese u Siriji?
Naravno, svakako je moguće, ali to ovisi o političkoj usmjerenosti postojećih vlada. Ako su postojale pogreške u politici, posebno one koje su počinile prethodne vlade, vrlo je lako za buduće vlade ili za ovu postojeću obnoviti te odnose. Mi od tih vlada ne tražimo ništa drugo nego da najprije misle o interesima svojeg naroda, a zatim na međunarodno pravo koje se ponajprije zasniva na suverenosti drugih zemalja i nemiješanju u njihove unutarnje poslove. Mi nismo nikada, tijekom cijele naše povijesti otkad su započeli odnosi između nas i Hrvatske sada, a bivše Jugoslavije u prošlosti, izveli nikakav neprijateljski čin protiv tih zemalja. Uvijek smo ih smatrali prijateljima. Kakvo opravdanje ima vlada da pošalje oružje teroristima u Siriji koje će se koristiti za ubijanje nedužnih Sirijaca? Mislim da nema opravdanja za to i nadamo se da sadašnja vlada to ne prihvaća.
Postoji velik broj džihadista i terorista koji su došli s Balkana. Imate li informaciju o njihovu broju?
Nemamo točnih informacija zbog našeg turskog susjeda pod vodstvom kriminalca Erdoğana, koji podržava jačanje prisutnosti tih terorista u Siriji. To nam onemogućuje kontrolu granica i posljedično nam ne omogućuje točnu statistiku o broju terorista koji ulaze i izlaze iz zemlje. Ali glavno pitanje nije pitanje nacionalnosti tih terorista, jer znate da teroristi gledaju na cijeli svijet kao na jedinstvenu arenu. Oni ne vode računa ni o nacionalnoj dimenziji ni o političkim granicama. Tako da opasnost za vašu zemlju ili za Europu općenito ne dolazi samo od europskih terorista. Istina je da neki Europljanin može biti opasniji jer poznaje vašu regiju u detalje, ali njega će pratiti i drugi teroristi iz drugih zemalja, teroristi koji dijele istu doktrinu, aspiracije i ideje, u namjeri da izvedu napade. Zato, kada govorimo o broju terorista u Siriji, svakako govorimo o stotinama tisuća ili barem o više od stotinu tisuća. Naravno, oni dolaze i odlaze, a neki od njih budu i ubijeni u borbi.
Prosječni se ljudi pitaju o uzrocima napada na Siriju i pokušajima vašeg svrgavanja. Koji razlozi stoje iza toga?
Razlog je star, jednostavan i jasan. Te zapadne zemlje, predvođene Sjedinjenim Američkim Državama, u partnerstvu s uglavnom Velikom Britanijom i Francuskom, a na žalost i nekim europskim zemljama koje nemaju kolonijalnu povijest, ne prihvaćaju nezavisne države i ne prihvaćaju ravnopravne odnose. Oni žele satelitske države koje provode njihove politike. Velike države imaju interese po cijelom svijetu, a mi imamo interese u našem okruženju. Nismo supersila, ali kada djelujemo s drugim državama, interesi trebaju biti zajednički. No oni žele da djelujemo za njihove interese protiv naših. Zbog toga smo uvijek bili u sukobu s tim zemljama. Na primjer, mi želimo mirovni proces, dok oni žele pokornost umjesto mira. Oni žele da imamo mir bez prava, što nije razumno. Oni žele da se odreknemo svoje suverenosti, da odustanemo od svojih prava koja su priznata međunarodnim pravom, rezolucijama Vijeća sigurnosti i brojnom potporom u Ujedinjenim nacijama za povrat naših područja. Postoji mnogo pitanja zbog kojih smatraju da je Sirija kao država previše nezavisna. Zbog toga su mislili da bi im vođenje rata u Siriji i zamjena sadašnje vlade klijentelističkom olakšalo stvari i omogućilo postizanje njihovih uskih interesa.
Cijena otpora i podložnosti
Da ste prihvatili mir ili pokornost, kako ste rekli, bi li se dogodilo ovo što se danas događa u Siriji?
Dat ću vam jedan primjer. Od nas je zatraženo da stanemo uz Zapad, posebno SAD, 2003. godine u njihovu ratu protiv Iraka. Znali smo da je rat u Iraku početak niza događaja radi podjele regije. Na svim konferencijama koje su se održavale prije rata, u namjeri da se odredi budućnost poslijeratnog Iraka, raspravljalo se o budućnosti sektaškog, a ne jedinstvenog Iraka. Dakle, znali smo da će se ono što se događa u Iraku preseliti u Siriju i na cijelu regiju. Da smo tada sudjelovali, situacija u Siriji bila bi danas puno gora nego nakon što smo to odbili učiniti. Zbog toga sam običavao govoriti da je cijena otpora puno manja nego cijena podložnosti. To sam rekao puno puta u prošlosti, a kasniji događaji u Siriji to su i dokazali. Ono što je pomoglo Siriji da danas čvrsto stoji jest to što je ona ujedinjena. Da smo pristali na sektaški projekt, bili bismo zemlja rastrgana pravim građanskim ratom. Građanski rat bio bi stvarnost, a ne samo pojam koji se koristi za opis onoga što se zbiva.
Zašto zaljevske zemlje plaćaju novcem i podržavaju teroriste kako bi svrgnule vladu u Siriji?
Većina zaljevskih država satelitske su države koje se ne usude reći ne. Neke od njih kažu: “Mi vas podržavamo, ali to ne možemo javno reći. Želimo vam pobjedu u ratu i nadamo se da ćete biti u stanju sačuvati jedinstvenu Siriju i pobijediti teroriste.” Ali u javnosti govore nešto drugo jer su podložni zapadnjačkoj volji. Većinu zaljevskih država, ako ne i sve, u određenoj fazi stvorili su Britanci, a poslije su predane Amerikancima.
Prihvaćate li ideju federalizma u Siriji o kojoj se u posljednje vrijeme dosta govori?
Federalizam je nacionalno pitanje, a treba li se dogoditi ili ne, ovisi o ustroju. A za ustroj je potreban glas naroda, a vlada i izvršna tijela izražavaju volju naroda. Ipak, većina Sirijaca ne prihvaća federalizam jer je to uvod u podijeljenost. Nema opravdanja za federalizam jer Sirijci su živjeli zajedno, u istom ustroju, bez ikakvih problema, desetljećima i stoljećima, i prije postojanja sirijske države, čak i za vrijeme i prije Osmanskog Carstva. Nema povijesnih ratova između sastavnica sirijskog naroda kojima bi se opravdavala tvrdnja da te sekte, religije ili etniciteti ne mogu živjeti jedne s drugima. Tako je pitanje federalizma izmišljeno radi postizanja situacije slične onoj u Iraku kako bi se proizvela slaba država, slaba vlada, slab narod i slaba domovina.
Svaka je intervencija invazija
Turska je vojska prisutna u Siriji. Što mislite o tome?
Erdoğan je učinio to jer je svoje nade vezao za teroriste koji postižu pobjede, ali sve dok se nije dogodila bitka za Alep. Za njega je to bila odlučujuća bitka uzimajući u obzir političku, ekonomsku, geografsku i logističku važnost toga grada. Neuspjeh terorista da zadrže svoje pozicije u Alepu izazvao je izravnu umiješanost Erdoğana da si barem osigura mjesto za političkim stolom kada dođe vrijeme za razgovore o budućnosti Sirije. On je želio teroristima Al-Nusre i Al-Qa’ide dati jedno ljepše lice nakon što je u cijelom svijetu razotkriveno kako je vrlo blizak njima, u svakom smislu riječi. Htio im je dati druga imena, obrijati im brade da poprime izgled umjerenjaka, kako bi se stvari vratile na stanje koje je postojalo u početku krize. I kako bi osigurao ulogu Turske u pronalaženju rješenja u Siriji putem terorista u novom obliku.
Postoji isto pitanje i s američkim trupama koje su u zemlji i sada pomažu Kurdima? Smatrate li ih okupacijskim snagama?
Svakako. Svaka intervencija, pa čak i prisutnost jednog jedinog vojnika bez dozvole sirijske vlade, predstavlja invaziju u svakom smislu riječi. Svaka intervencija, iz zraka ili na bilo koji drugi način, također je nelegitimna intervencija i agresija na Siriju.
Zašto je Amerika ovdje?
Američka se politika općenito zasniva na kreiranju kaosa u raznim dijelovima svijeta i kreiranju konflikata između država. To nije ništa novo. To traje desetljećima, samo u raznim oblicima.
Kako vidite izbor Trumpa za predsjednika SAD-a? I možete li surađivati s njim, posebno nakon nedavnih izjava nove američke administracije da sirijski narod odlučuje o sudbini predsjednika. Smatrate li da je došlo do promjene u američkoj politici?
Prva izjava o tome treba li predsjednik Sirije otići ili ostati datira iz doba Obamine administracije, a ponavljale su je političke papige u Europi. Mi tome nismo nikada pridavali pozornost i nikada to nismo komentirali jer nas se to ne tiče. To je sirijsko pitanje i odnosi se na sirijski narod. Zbog toga je sve što je bilo rečeno o tom predmetu jednostavno bačeno u smeće. Zato svaka slična izjava, za ili protiv, učinjena od bilo koje države, nije prihvatljiva, jer to nije američko ili europsko pitanje, niti je to briga bilo kojeg drugog pojedinca izvan Sirije. Što se tiče naše procjene nove američke administracije, unatoč činjenici da se ona još uvijek nalazi u svojim ranim danima, naučili smo nešto važno otkako su obnovljeni odnosi između Sirije i SAD-a godine 1974. kad nas je posjetio bivši američki predsjednik Richard Nixon. Naučili smo da se ne kladimo na dobru administraciju. Uvijek kažemo koja je loša administracija i koja je još lošija. Ne kažemo koja je administracija dobra i koja je bolja ili koja je loša, a koja dobra. Ono što sada vidimo u Americi beskrajni su sukobi unutar administracije i sukobi izvan administracije s administracijom. Zbog toga vidimo samo jednu stvar u toj administraciji bez obzira na izjave koje se čine boljima od onih kod prethodne. Budući da su poslali trupe u Siriju bez suradnje i bez zahtjeva legitimne sirijske vlade, to znači da ta administracija, kao i druge, ne želi povratak stabilnosti u Siriji.
Sirija je nedavno bila predmetom nastavka izraelske agresije. Što se krije iza toga? I jeste li zabrinuti zbog mogućnosti sirijsko-izraelskog rata?
Stvarnost je takva da mi živimo ovaj rat. Ali što se tiče nazivanja tog rata sirijsko-izraelskim, u svakom slučaju možete pretpostaviti da se teroristi bore za Izrael. Iako oni nisu regularna izraelska vojska, ipak se bore za Izrael. A Izrael ima iste ciljeve kao i Turska, SAD, Francuska, Britanija, Saudijska Arabija, Katar i druge države. Svi oni imaju isti cilj. To je rat koji je preuzeo novi oblik i koristi nove instrumente. Praktično je naša pobjeda nad teroristima pobjeda nad svim tim državama zajedno. Zato Izrael čini sve što može da podrži te teroriste na svakom mjestu na kojemu sirijska vojska napreduje. Oni napadaju na ovaj ili onaj način kako bi osigurali podršku teroristima i kako bi usporili zamah sirijske arapske vojske.
Laži se ne mogu održati
Nedavno su mnogi europski parlamentarci krenuli prema Siriji, neki javno, neki tajno. Znači li to da se nešto dogodilo i znači li to promjenu u europskoj politici prema Siriji?
Europska politika stvarno se nije promijenila jer su europski dužnosnici otišli predaleko sa svojim lažima. Ako žele učiniti potpuni zaokret, europsko javno mnijenje će im reći: “Vi ste nam lagali. Ništa od onoga što ste rekli nije istina.” Zbog toga su oni ustrajali na svojim lažima, ali uz nekoliko izmjena s vremena na vrijeme. Stalno su prodavali isti proizvod u različitoj ambalaži kako bi zavarali svoje kupce, tj. europsko javno mnijenje. Zapadno javno mnijenje se promijenilo, ponajprije zato što se laži ne mogu održati šest godina jer ih pobijaju činjenice. Drugo, zahvaljujući društvenim mrežama, postalo je teško kontrolirati ulaz i izlaz informacija i podataka po cijelom svijetu. Treće, to se dogodilo kao rezultat golemih migracijskih valova prema Europi i terorističkih napada koji su pogodili brojne europske države, posebno Francusku. Ti su događaji naveli građane Zapada da si postave pitanje – što se stvarno događa. Ono što se promijenilo u današnjoj Europi jest da javno mnijenje dobro zna da korporativni mediji i političari lažu. Međutim, javno mnijenje ne zna punu istinu, ono zna samo dio nje i istražuje istinu o onome što se događa u Siriji, o onome što se dogodilo u Libiji i što se danas događa u Jemenu. I postavlja si pitanje o odnosu između dužnosnika u svojim zemljama i petrodolarima u zaljevskim zemljama.
Nedavno ste rekli da će u 2017. slijediti kraj rata u Siriji. Vjerujete li još uvijek da će se rat u Siriji završiti ove godine?
Ne, nisam to rekao doslovno. Nekoliko sam puta rekao da bez zapadne intervencije možemo završiti ovaj rat i sve njegove učinke tijekom nekoliko mjeseci, odnosno za manje od godinu dana. To je bilo 2016. godine i bilo je protumačeno kao da je rat na kraju i kao da će sljedeće godine biti kraj rata. Stvari se, svakako, kreću u boljem smjeru, kako sam rekao, ne u interesu terorista, nego u interesu sirijskog naroda. Ali rat je nepredvidiv, posebno zato što zemlje koje su podupirale teroriste čine sve što mogu da ih zaštite. Najprije zato što poraz terorista znači i njihov politički poraz u svojim zemljama. I drugo, što je iscrpljivanje Sirije bio jedan od glavnih zadataka koji su nastojali izvesti putem terorista i putem rata. Tako da, iako je Sirija uspjela izaći iz toga rata, oni su željeli da završna cijena bude iscrpljenost i umor Sirije. Dakle, da naša zemlja ima energiju samo da se hrani i ponovno izgradi samu sebe te da zaboravi na sva druga pitanja koja je okružuju – u smislu svojih prava i dužnosti u odnosu na zemlje u našoj regiji. Drugim riječima, žele da Sirija bude nesposobna igrati bilo kakvu aktivnu, vrijednu ili značajnu ulogu u regiji.
Jeste li uvjereni u pobjedu sirijsko-rusko-iranskog saveza?
Kako sam maloprije rekao, imamo nadu koja je sve veća, a ta se nada gradi na povjerenju. U svakom slučaju, nemamo drugih opcija osim pobjede. Ako ne dobijemo ovaj rat, to znači da će Sirija biti izbrisana s karte. Nemamo izbora, nego se suočiti s tim ratom i zato smo uvjereni, uporni i odlučni.
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASSAD INTERVIEW
GIVEN TO VECERNJI LIST 03/04/2017
Question 1: Mr. President, we are already into the sixth year of the Syrian war. After the recent victories achieved by the Syrian Army in Aleppo and Palmyra, and the ongoing reconciliations, is there a glimmer of hope of an end to the Syrian war?
President Assad: Of course, for without hope neither the country, nor the people, nor the state could withstand six years of an extremely ferocious war supported by tens of regional and Western countries, some of the wealthiest and most powerful countries in the world. Without hope, there wouldn’t have been a will. But the question is: how to turn this hope into reality? This has been possible so far through two practical approaches. The first is fighting terrorism, regardless of the different names and categories given to terrorist organizations, and the second is through achieving reconciliations with all those who want to lay down their weapons, return to their normal life, and to the embrace of their country. There has been progress on both fronts: in fighting terrorism and achieving reconciliations. That’s why I say there is more hope now than in the past years.
Question 2: In the negotiations conducted previously in Astana and now in Geneva, most negotiators on the other side belonged to the opposition which upholds Wahhabi, Salafi, and Jihadi thought. Why are you negotiating with these people in the first place? And is there in reality a moderate opposition as described by the media?
President Assad: This is a very important question, because Western officials, most prominently former US President Obama, said that the moderate opposition was an illusion or a fantasy. This is by their admission, they, who supported that opposition and gave it a false moderate cover. So, this moderate opposition does not exist. The opposition which exists is a Jihadi opposition in the perverted sense of Jihad of course. It is also indoctrinated in the perverted sense that does not accept neither dialogue nor a solution except through terrorism.
That is why we cannot, practically, reach any actual result with this part of the opposition. The evidence is that during the Astana negotiations they started their attack on the cities of Damascus and Hama and other parts of Syria, repeating the cycle of terrorism and the killing of innocents.
This opposition, between brackets, because it cannot be called opposition, these terrorists cannot be an opposition and cannot help reach a solution. Apart from that, these terrorist groups are themselves linked to the agendas of foreign countries. They do not belong to a certain current or movement among the Syrian people that seeks political reform or a certain solution, neither before nor during the war. Another part of these groups might look political in the sense that they do not carry arms, but they support terrorism. A third part is linked to the Saudi, Turkish, and Western agenda.
Question 3: Why are you negotiating with them?
President Assad: We do that because, in the beginning, many people did not believe that these groups do not want to lay down their weapons and move towards political action. We went in order to prove to all those who have doubts about this that these groups cannot engage in politics, and that they are terrorist groups at heart and will remain so to the end.
Question 4: The world has declared war on terrorism. Do you believe that declaration and in what they are doing today, and can we say that it’s only Syria that is fighting terrorism today?
President Assad: The world that declared war consists practically of Western countries which themselves support terrorism. Most countries of the world are against terrorism. They do not declare that, but they have been practically cooperating with us in one way or another during the war, and before the war, because terrorism did not start only with the war on Syria. Terrorism has always existed in the world and has become more widespread as a result of the different wars in the Middle East. But the Western countries which declared war on terrorism still support it up till now. They do not fight it. It is used only in name for domestic consumption. The fact of the matter is that they use terrorism as a card to achieve different political agendas, even when this terrorism backfires and claims victims in their own countries. But they do not acknowledge this fact.
As to who is fighting terrorism in Syria, it is basically the Syrian Arab Army. This is not only a claim because there are facts on the ground which prove it. The Syrian Arab Army has been able to make these achievements in fighting terrorists thanks, in the first place, to the Syrian fighters’ will, and thanks to popular support. Without popular support, it is not possible to achieve such victories. However, there has been verystrong support from our allies, whether it was Iran, Russia, or Hezbollah from Lebanon.
Question 5: Does the Syrian Army represent all sects, ethnicities and minorities in Syria?
President Assad: Of course, that is self-evident. An army that represents part of the Syrian people cannot win in a war taking place throughout Syria. That is self-evident, regardless of how it is portrayed in the West. At the beginning of the war, the terms used by the terrorists themselves or in the media hostile to Syria in the West and in our region, wanted to portray the war as taking place between sects. This image was widespread in the West. Had this been real, Syria would have been partitioned from the first months of the war. It wouldn’t have withstood for six years as a unified people. It is true that the terrorists control some areas, but the parts controlled by the Syrian state include all parts of the spectrum of the Syrian people. More importantly, they have some of the terrorists’ families and people who fled from terrorist-controlled areas to state-controlled areas. If this Syrian Army, and behind it the Syrian government, do not represent all the Syrian people, it wouldn’t have been possible to see this unified picture of the Syrian people.
Question 6: Mr. President, there is a question I have to ask: if there has been security cooperation between the Syrian government and the European states, would have we avoided the terrorist operations which have reached France, Belgium, etc.? I ask this question because after the terrorist operations in Paris, the former head of French intelligence said that you have provided them with names and documents about terrorists, and they refused to accept them. Did they really refuse to accept them? And had there been cooperation, would have we been able to avoid these terrorist operations?
President Assad: No, he was probably speaking about cooperation before the war, because after the beginning of the war and the French position in support of the terrorists, Syria stopped security cooperation with those countries, because there cannot be security cooperation and political hostility at the same time. There should be political agreement, on the one hand, and agreement in other areas, including security, on the other.
As to whether it would have been possible to prevent such attacks in Europe through this security cooperation, in normal circumstances, the answer would be yes. But under current circumstances, the answer is no, because Europe, or a number of European countries, support terrorists on a large scale, send to Syria tens of thousands of terrorists, or support them directly and indirectly, logistically, with arms, money, political cover, and everything. When you reach this stage of supporting terrorists – and here we are talking about tens of thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands in Syria and neighboring areas – security cooperation becomes of limited effectiveness in such a case. Security cooperation focuses on tens or hundreds of individuals, but cannot be effective when there are tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of terrorists.
If Europe wants to protect itself at this stage, it should first stop supporting terrorists in Syria. Assuming that we wanted to cooperate with them, no results can be achieved in these circumstances. We will not do that, of course, when they support terrorism. They should stop supporting terrorists immediately in any shape or form.
Question 7: Mr. President, I would like to go back to Croatia. In 2009, you visited the Croatian capital Zagreb and met Croatian officials. At that time, I read a statement by Your Excellency in which you said that Croatia is a friendly country and the Croatian people is a brotherly people, etc. Do you still consider the Croatian people a friend of Syria, particularly after the scandal related to arms shipments from Croatia to Washington, and then to Saudi Arabia and Jordan, which ultimately fell in the hands of the terrorists?
President Assad: Certainly. The Croatian people is friendly people, and our relations are decades old. We are talking about a relationship which has lasted for generations and is still going on. We do not hold the Croatian people responsible for errors made by their governments.
More importantly, if we try to monitor the public opinion in Croatia in relation to what’s going on in Syria, we’ll find that in comparison with other countries, this public opinion has been, throughout the war in general, closer to understanding what is going on in Syria than many other European peoples. Had this relationship and this friendship not been a genuine one, it would have been difficult for the Croatian people to understand what’s going on in Syria.
That’s why I would like to stress that what happened concerning the arms shipment that reached the terrorists was one of the ‘achievements’ of the former Croatian government, perhaps for financial interests, or maybe for political interests in the form of giving in to pressure exerted by other big Western powers. But, in any way, they sold the interests and principles of the Croatian people in return for petrodollars, or in the service of the narrow political interests of those officials.
Question 8: Is it possible to restore political and diplomatic relations, and probably economic relations, for Croatia has many interests in Syria?
President Assad: Of course, this is certainly possible, but this depends on the political orientations of the existing governments. If there have been policy mistakes, particularly those made by previous governments, it is very easy for future governments, or the existing one, to repair these policies. We ask these governments for nothing except thinking first of their peoples’ interests, and second of the international law which is based primarily on the sovereignty of other countries and non-intervention in their internal affairs. We have never, throughout our history and since relations started between us and Croatia now and former Yugoslavia in the past, carried out any hostile act against these countries. We have always considered them friends. What is the justification for a government to send weapons to terrorists in Syria to be used in killing innocent Syrians. I don’t think there is a justification for this; and we hope that the present government does not accept this.
Question 9: There is a large number of Jihadis or terrorists who came from the Balkans. Do you have information about their numbers?
President Assad: There is no accurate information, because of the existence of our Turkish neighbor led by the criminal Erdogan who creates all the circumstances necessary to support and strengthen the presence of those terrorists in Syria. This does not allow us to control the borders, and consequently does not allow for accurate statistics about the number of terrorists who go in and out. But the issue is not about the nationalities of these terrorists, because you know that terrorists look at the whole world as a single arena. They care neither about the national dimension nor about political borders. So, the danger to your country, or to Europe in general, does not come only from European terrorist. It is true that a European can be more dangerous because he knows the region in detail; but he will come accompanied by other terrorists from other countries, terrorists who share the same doctrine, aspirations, and ideas, in order to carry out terrorist acts in those countries. So, when we talk about the number of terrorists in Syria, we are certainly talking about hundreds of thousands, at least more than a hundred thousand. Of course, they come and go, and some of them are killed in battle; but this is our estimate of the numbers.
Question 10: Mr. President, average people in Europe or the world ask about the causes of this attack on Syria and the attempts to bring Your Excellency down. And everybody talks about the reform which you have introduced. What’s the reason behind the calls for bringing you down?
President Assad: The reason is old, simple, and clear. Those Western countries, led by the United States, in partnership mainly with Britain and France, and unfortunately some European countries which did not have a colonial history, do not accept independent states and do not accept peer relations. They want satellite states which implement their policies.
Of course, we are not against common interests with other states, with any state. Big states have interests around the world and we, as a state, have interests in our region. We are not a superpower, but when we work, based on interests, with those states, the interests should be joint interests. They want us to act for their interests against ours. That’s why we have always been in a state of struggle with these states over our interests. For instance, we want the peace process, while they want submission instead of peace. They want us to have peace without rights, which is not reasonable. They want us to give up our sovereignty, to abandon our rights which are acknowledged by international law, Security Council resolutions, and the numerous votes at United Nations for the return of our lands. These are mere examples. There are many similar issues over which they consider Syria too independent a state. That’s why they thought that waging war on Syria and replacing the current government with a client government would make it easier and better to achieve their narrow interests.
Question 11: Had you accepted peace, or submission as you put it, would what is happening to Syria today had happened?
President Assad: In order to talk about something realistic, I would give you an example. We were asked to side with the West, with the United States in particular, in 2003, in its war against Iraq. We knew that the Iraq war was a series of events aiming at partitioning the region, and we knew very well that the conferences which were held before the war in order to define the future of post-war Iraq, all discussed a future sectarian Iraq, and not a unified Iraq.
So, we knew that what was happening in Iraq will be carried over to Syria and to the whole region. Had we taken part in such a project at that time, the situation in Syria would have been much worse than if we had refused to do so. That’s why I used to say that the price for rejection or resistance is much less than the price of submission and surrender. I said this many times in the past, and the events in Syria came to prove this argument. What helped Syria to stand fast today is that it is unified. Had we gone along with the sectarian project, following the Iraqi or Lebanese model, as the Americans wanted us to do then, we would have been a country torn by a real civil war. Civil war would have been a reality, not merely a term used to describe what’s going on.
Question 12: Why do the Gulf states pay money and support terrorists to bring the government down in Syria?
President Assad: Most Gulf states are satellite states which do not dare say no. Some of them say: “We support you but cannot say so publicly. We wish you victory in your war and hope you’ll be able to preserve a united Syria and to defeat terrorists,” but in public they say something different, because they are submissive to the Western will. Most Gulf states, if not all of them, were created by the British at a certain stage and handed over to the Americans at a later stage. That’s why we cannot make a judgment on why they say something or why they say the opposite.
Question 13: They talk about creating federalism in Syria. Is that possible? And do you accept the creation of federalism in Syria?
President Assad: Federalism is a national issue; and whether it should or should not happen depends on the constitution. And the constitution needs a popular vote. That’s why we cannot, as a government, say that we accept or not accept federalism. The government and the executive authority express the will of the people. However, I can give you the general view in Syria. The majority of Syrians do not accept federalism because it is an introduction to partition. There is no justification for federalism, for the Syrians have been living together, in the same structure, without any problems for decades and centuries, even before the existence of the Syrian state, even during and before the Ottoman state. There are no historical wars between the components of the Syrian people to justify the assertion that these sects or religions or ethnicities cannot live with each other. So, the issue of federalism is made-up with the objective of reaching a situation similar to that of Iraq. In that case they use this or that part of the state, which is supposed to be a strong state, in order to produce a weak state, a weak government, a weak people, and a weak homeland.
Question 14: Turkey sent troops and has a military existence in Syria. Why do you think?
President Assad: Because Erdogan had pinned all his hopes on the terrorists achieving victories until the battle of Aleppo happened. For him, it was a decisive battle considering the political, economic, geographical, and logistical importance of Aleppo. The terrorists’ failure to keep their positions in the city of Aleppo as a result of popular rejection on the part of the population of the city and the governorate, and as a result of the achievements made by the Syrian army, caused Erdogan to interfere directly at least to secure a place at the political table when the time comes for talking about the future of Syria.
He also wanted to give al-Nusra and Al Qaeda terrorists a facelift after he was exposed worldwide as being very close to them, in every sense of the word. He wanted to give them other names, to make them shave their beards and assume the appearance of moderates, to return things to the way they were at the beginning of the crisis, and as I said to secure a role for Turkey in finding a solution in Syria through the terrorists in their new form.
Question 15: There is the same issue with American troops which are in the country and help the Kurds now. Do you consider them occupation forces?
President Assad: Of course. Any intervention, even the existence of any individual soldier, without the permission of the Syrian government, is an invasion in every sense of the word. And any intervention, from the air or otherwise, is also an illegitimate intervention and an aggression on Syria.
Question 16: Why is America here? What are the reasons in your opinion, Mr. President?
President Assad: In general terms, the American policy is based on creating chaos in different parts of the world and creating conflicts among states. This is not new. It has been going on for decades, but in different forms. Through these conflicts, it secures a foothold through the contradictions and through its proxies who are already there but were able to become prominent because of the new circumstances. And then it takes part in bargaining in order to secure its interests in that region. This is an old American policy.
Question 17: How do you see the election of Trump as President of the United States? And can you cooperate with him, particularly after recent statements on the part of the new American administration which said that the Syrian people determine the fate of the President. Do you think there is a change in the American policy?
President Assad: First, concerning the different statements about whether the President should remain or leave, and since the first statement made during the Obama administration, which has been repeated by the political parrots in Europe, we have never paid any attention to it and never commented on it because it does not concern us. This is a Syrian issue related to the Syrian people. That’s why all that has been said on the subject is simply thrown in the rubbish bin. So, any similar statement, with or against, made now by any state, is not acceptable now, because this is not an American or a European issue, nor is it the concern of any other individual outside Syria.
As to our evaluation of the new American administration, and despite the fact that it is still in its early days, we have learned something important since relations were resumed between Syria and the United States in 1974, when former American President Richard Nixon visited us. We learned not to bet on a good administration. We always say which is a bad administration and which is worse. We do not say which is good and which is better or which is bad and which is good.
What we see in America now are endless conflicts: conflicts inside the administration and conflicts outside the administration with the administration. That’s why we see only one thing in this administration, regardless of the statements which seem to be better than those of other administrations. Since they sent troops to Syria without coordination and without a request from the legitimate Syrian government, it means that this administration, like other administrations, does not want stability to be restored in Syria.
Question 18: Mr. President, Syria has been subject recently to continuing Israeli aggression. What is the objective behind that? And are you concerned about the possibility of a Syrian-Israeli war?
President Assad: Concern about a war is unrealistic, because the reality is that we are living this war. But as for calling it a Syrian-Israeli war, you can assume in any case that these terrorists are fighting for Israel. Even if they are not a regular Israeli army, they are still fighting for Israel. And Israel shares the objectives with Turkey, the United States, France, Britain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other states. They all share the same objective. It is a war that has taken a new form and uses new instruments. Practically, our victory over the terrorists is a victory over all those states put together. That’s why Israel is doing its best to support these terrorists in every place the Syrian Army advances. They attack in one way or another in order to provide support to the terrorists and in order to stall the momentum of the Syrian Arab Army in facing them.
Question 19: Recently, many European parliamentarians started to flock on Syria, some publicly and some secretly. Does this mean that something has happened or does this imply a change in the European policy towards Syria? Have they understood that you were right?
President Assad: The European policy has not actually changed, because the European officials have gone too far with their lies; and now if they want to make a U-turn, the European public opinion will tell them: you were lying to us. All of what you said was not true. That’s why they have persisted in their lies but with a few modifications from time to time. They have reproduced the same product using different packaging in order to deceive their customers, i.e. the European public opinion. The Western public opinion has changed, first because those lies cannot go on for six years while belied by the facts.
Second, thanks to the social media, it has become difficult for the corporate media linked to the political machines in the West to control the ins and outs of information and data throughout the world.
Third, this happened as a result of the huge migration waves towards Europe and the terrorist acts which hit a number of European states, particularly France. These different events have made the Western citizen ask questions about the reality of what’s going on.
What has changed in Europe today is that the public opinion knows very well that the corporate media and the politicians are lying. But the public opinion does not know the full truth, it knows only part of the truth and is seeking out the truth of what is happening in Syria, what happened in Libya, and what’s happening in Yemen today, and is asking questions about the relationship between the officials in their countries and the petrodollars in the Gulf states, and other questions.
Question 20: You said recently that 2017 will see the end of the war in Syria. Do you still believe that the war in Syria will end this year?
President Assad: No, I did not say this literally. I said several times that without Western intervention, we can end this war and all its ramifications in a few months, i.e. in less than a year. That was in 2016, and was interpreted that the war was at an end and that the next year will see the end of the war.
Of course, things are moving in a better direction, as I said, not in the interest of the terrorists but in the interest of the Syrian people, but war is unpredictable, especially that the countries which have supported the terrorists are doing their absolute best to protect them, first because the defeat of the terrorists means a political defeat for them in their countries, and second because exhausting Syria is one of the major tasks they have been trying to accomplish through the terrorists and through war. So, even if Syria was able to come out of this war, they want the bottom line price to be Syria’s exhaustion and fatigue so that Syria will have energy only to feed and rebuild itself and forget all the other issues surrounding it in terms of its rights and duties in relation to the different countries in our region. In other words, they want Syria to be unable to play any active, valuable, or weighty role in the region.
Journalist: Are you confident of the victory of the Syrian-Russian-Iranian alliance?
President Assad: As I said a while ago, we have a great hope which is becoming greater; and this hope is built on confidence, for without confidence there wouldn’t be any hope. In any case, we do not have any other option except victory. If we do not win this war, it means that Syria will be deleted from the map. We have no choice in facing this war, and that’s why we are confident, we are persistent and we are determined.
Journalist: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
President Assad: Thank you.
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